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Practical Suggestions

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keggs
Joined on 24 déc. 2005
Total posts: 208

Re: Practical Suggestions

vendredi 21 décembre 2007 10:33

Hi Simplydancer

You are a saviour. This is exactly what I was hoping for. How did it about. We can learn so much fro your country's experience. Your dance Sport Federation appears to be what I want to see set up Britain.

Is is possible that your leaders could help and advise on how we can adapt what you have created? I do hope so.

What is your country by the way?

As for the a particular individual who seems to have atacked and upset so many other people (I well remember the acid reaction to my first post) I will no longer debate with her until she makes a positive contribution to debate. It might surprise (I know she will be reading this) that I have on a number of occasions agreed with her despite being on opposing sides of an argument. She has made some valid comment. However, once the abuse takes hold if someone dares disagree, then it all falls apart. For example, I was reading a thread between her and thinkome and unfortunately, it was just sarcasm followed by sarcastic responses. Not a way to debate. Hence this new thread.

So, to everyone interested in how dancing in Britain can improve please do offer practical suggestion. Can I repeat practical suggesion as to how this can be done. One small suggestion that brings people - pro, amateur, social dancer what ever together would go a long way. As I've said before small changes can have huge effects, which may (if |I may make so bold a sugesstion) is what probably happened in Simplydancers country. Something happened to change. I'd dearly love to know what it was.

Harmony will never happen completely when different sides are pulling in different directions. But it even more less likely to occur when one group dominate another. This is simply a recipe for strife. It may take a while to happen (Britons are never quick to act) but happen. The same applies to my dream of all sides working together for a common purpose.

Best wishes for Christmas

Steve
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keggs
Joined on 24 déc. 2005
Total posts: 208

Re: Practical Suggestions

vendredi 21 décembre 2007 10:37

I don't know whether it's my bad typing but words and letters appear to disappear in my posts. Is there a preview somewhere.

Steve
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el cordobes
Joined on 19 janv. 2005
Total posts: 117

Re: Practical Suggestions

vendredi 21 décembre 2007 17:33

Just as a matter of interest I have met quite a few professionals or individuals close to the world of dancing in England who have kids and who actually are not particularly that keen for them to dance knowing the circumstances. I am not saying it is the majority but given the fact that some of them have prominent positions in the dance world...that makes you think a bit.

As an example which I think is quite common...why would a youth couple would want to pursue his dancing further in 2007?

The questions this couple would probably have are:

-How much is it going to cost us?

-Will we be able to finance it, How?

-Can we forget about studies and have a decent job after?

-What are the benefits? (recognition in sport or art societies ?)

-Which lifestyle can you expect? (social, private life etc...)

- Is a 24/7 attitude focused on your dancing worth it?

The answers are pretty grim I am afraid...who honnestly in the world we live today want to have such a lifestyle....I have not met that many youngsters ready for this and I don't blame them. In Russia they do but this is the carrot/stick system and this is no joke. I go back to a previous post and mention the words of Donnie Burns..."Dancing will always be the interest of a minority".

These professionnals are not stupid...they have actually experienced the evolution of the competitive dancings scene over the years and have realised that the best to way to survive in this business is to protect yourslef and be part of a powerful society which has control of alsmost every aspect of the business (dancer, promoter, teacher). They don't like "Changes" because they do know that as much as Strictly Come Dancing brings a lovely flow of people in social classes every four months...the reality of a dancer's life is not very appealing for a majority of people...it is a personnal journey similar as as martial art in a way which is for a tiny fraction of people in our modern societies.

I can't believe all these people at the BDC, BDF, IDTA have a deliberate intention for the system not to change. Maybe it is about reality checks. I am not saying we should not improve the system... don't get me wrong.

Why do you think people would want to compete ? What could make more people want to compete ?

 

 

 

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keggs
Joined on 24 déc. 2005
Total posts: 208

Re: Practical Suggestions

vendredi 21 décembre 2007 23:22

Hi El Cordobe

Great to see your input. Much of what you say is probably correct. In fact, I am in a similar position. My youngest son is at the stage where he would like to compete. Half of me wants him to and the other half is (excuse the pun halfhearted). So, I do understand where you are coming from.

However, my arguments are not about whether we should be encouraging competition dancing or not, it is about a whole host of things ranging from changing our structures to ensuring everyone has an equal opportunity of taking their activty to whatever level they want, to promotion and developing the sport to the fullest extent.

What you say may be a reason but it is also a reason to stop doing what we've been doing and start to think about all those people who spend their hard earned cash week in, week out on their dancing, whether it's social dancing or competitive dancing.

For example, SCD has had a great influx of people coming to dancing schools. Fantastic! However, forgetting the competitive side of dancing, it's one thing learning to dance but quite another being able to go out and dance for pleasure away from the dance school. There are no ballrooms anymore. There is the one question people constantly ask me after they have learned to dance. Where can we go?

I'm trying to address this locally by holding a club dance hopefully bimonthly. Other schools may do the same. But why should we be left to do it on our own. The establishment will say "teachers have always done it that way, we don't need to change." Quite frankly that's garbage. If there was some local organisation involving anyone and everyone who has an interest in seeing social dancing develop (and it's far easier to do than develop say tennis) then our sport would prosper. Getting people involved in competitive dancing at a later stage will also I believe be easier.

It's this lack of vision and the realisation that not everyone wants to dance but some do but can't for whatever reason or lose interest because it doesn't take them any where that's so infuriating. There is no coordination at any level. Instead we have an establishment that's either too scared to try something new or is simply hoping in vain for something miraculous to happen to take the dance world back to the pre 2nd world war glory days. It isn't going to happen unless people take their heads out of the sand and start working together for common goals.

On the competitive side, I am constantly going into local primary schools to teach. It helps build my school but that's not the point of the exercise. The point is several fold:

1. To introduce a new sport to children who ordinarily would not dream of coming to a dancing school
2. To break down barriers
3. To help remove pre-conceptions (particularly among boys)
4. To help develop their social skills
5. To give children a chance to shine in another sporting activity that doesn't require you to be as hard as nails to succeed.

And so on.

The school I'm currently teaching in had a small competition last Thursday. The joy on all the children's (and their teacher's faces) was fabulous. After only 4 weeks, not only had all the children learned to dance, they weren't afraid to dance with someone of the opposite sex. At age 10, this I can assure you is a big, big problem.

The problem for me is that there are only a couple of local dancesport clubs in a very large area. But, would they get involved with me to organise proper coordinated approach to education schools. The answer is at the moment no. While I haven't asked them (I know, I should), I know what they will say before I do ask. "I don't have time." This is one of the poorest excuses anyone in business can make. If you haven't got time to spend on your business because you are too busy teaching, then you deserve to fail.

I know this is a lot to digest but the bottom line for me isn't competition dancing it is reorganising our structures to make use (collectively) of all the talents of everyone currently involved in our wonderful sport whether they are teachers, competitors, social dancers, parents.... Only by doing this will dancing ever be really popular and not a minority activity. It will also help get us noticed and maybe, just maybe get us a little more respect.

Hope this helps.

Best wishes
Steve
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simplydancer
Joined on 04 déc. 2007
Total posts: 25

Re: Practical Suggestions

samedi 22 décembre 2007 05:25

Hi Keggs
I have just written very long article and when I pushed the Post button everything dissapeared. So I try again.

When I arrived in Australia in early eighties, the Australian Championship was run in a middle sized town hall and finished in one day. 3 weeks ago we had our championship in a huge indoor stadium where the Australian Open tennis is played, it goes for 3 days, close to 700 couples entered incl. about 20 from overseas.

In my opinion this is direct result of the changes our organisation structure went through in the last say 15 years.  I am not sure about the exact dates or circumstances, but in the early nineties, a purely amateur association has been founded. Then for some years we had 2 australian championships, one run by the biggest professional society, the other by the amateur body. Later  some forward looking people in both organisations recognized the futility and cost of running each of them their own shows and decided to work together. There were few tries to form a body that would appeal to both sides then finaly the Dancesport Australia Ltd. open to all amateurs and professionals was created. We all members have a "stake" in this "company" limited to 20 dollars should we go bankrupt. Because it is a "company" it is regulated by company law and audited by independant accountants. The 2 biggest professional societies joined the DSA almost immediately so most of our leading teachers are members of both the DSA and their professional society.

You can look up the DSA constitution on www.dancesport.org.au

There seem to be no problem with selection of judges who of course are all professionals or the amateurs being allowed to teach when they completed coaching courses (not just technique) and only in a recognized studio/school.

Why this should be such a big problem in England is beyond me. The leading teachers have their books full so what are they afraid of. If an amateur wants to teach he has to turn professional. In many, probably most cases it means he or she stops dancing because unless they have been top amateurs, dancing as professional is not much fun. Small comps are very few and usually straight finals, big comps means going out in the early rounds.

Then in the last couple of years one dance school started a franchise and today they have already 12 dance schools around Melbourne. They are not affiliated with anybody and the number of attending dancers is very impressive. They get the teaching staff mainly from past amateur competitors who don't mind earning some additional income teching and dancing with students at internal competitions. Some owners of those schools are not even dancers they run it as a business mostly keeping their current employment as a safety net.

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keggs
Joined on 24 déc. 2005
Total posts: 208

Re: Practical Suggestions

samedi 22 décembre 2007 12:50

Hi Simplydancer.

What can I say - just absolutely fabulous. This is exactly what I want to see happen in Britain. The question is how to get it started. I know there are a number of professionals such as Peter Maxwell are involved with the IPDSC. .Another poster has already made denigrating comments towards this man. As such, perhaps he and others like him could be approached to help change British dancing. Surely, there sn't just me who want to see dancing develop properly in Britain with the active support (I reapeat active support) of a governing body actually interested in developing our sport rather than feathering their own nest and pretending everything is all fine and dandy.

Any suggestions.

I did suggest that schools like mine should be allowed to affiliate to EADA. Perhaps EADA and schools like mine could affiliate to a new open organisation. That's my hope but to get it started.

Eliane mentioned whether social dancers would benefit from membership of say EADA. I think they could. When someone at my club decides to take a medal test, on payment of their initial fee (one off payment) part of that fee could be paid to EADA (or more preferably the new dancesport body). Social dancers would then have a stake in the organisation.

My eldest son doesn't dance. He sails instead. When he passed his tests to know how to sail, membership of his sailing club also included a fee that went to the Royal Yachting Association. The RYA gives its thousands of members fabulous benefits. They have the money. We should and could do the same. But only if we change.

I've posted some of the information Icopied from the DSA documents onto the EADA web forum. I just people start to think now that it is possible to change if there is the will to do so.

Best wishes
Steve
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simplydancer
Joined on 04 déc. 2007
Total posts: 25

Re: Practical Suggestions

dimanche 23 décembre 2007 08:14

Hi El Cordobes
all your  questions are valid, but they apply to virtually any sport when you decide to take it seriously and go as far as you can.

Tennis and golf are I think good examples. Thousands and thousands are enjoying those sports. But they are not much cheaper than dancing. Court hire, club memberships, coach etc.
Benefits, lifestyle, 24/7 attitude , I feel todays generation of young people wants big results for very little effort. They don't want to work too hard. That's perfectly allright if they just enjoy playing or dancing without ambitions to go to the top. But even then you can't enjoy anything unless you have certain proficiency in it. So we can't expect anybody to enjoy or even love some activity unless they give it a serious try and not dismiss it outright.

You don't have to be Donnie Burns to observe that (Competition)Dancing will always be the interest of minority. Simple logic will tell that if you take away the major sports and divide the rest of the population between the other sports and activities, all are going to be minority sports.
1000 competitors is a minority but so is 10000.  But what a huge difference it would make.

And what makes people compete? It is probably human nature. Kids playing football, they want to kick goals. Housewives go to play tennis in the afternoon and they compete. We just want to know how good we are compared to the others.

By the way the paragraph in your post starting "These professionals are not stupid"  is spot on. Very well put indeed.


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Elaine
Joined on 28 janv. 2003
Total posts: 128

Re: Practical Suggestions

dimanche 23 décembre 2007 20:23

keggs:
By the way, is anyone going to Nantwich on 30th December.? I'm taking an all lady couple for their first competition. If anyone is going and would like to say hello please do so. Just let me know and perhaps we could meet up.

I think I am going to be there Steve, and it would be great to finally meet you at last!

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el cordobes
Joined on 19 janv. 2005
Total posts: 117

Re: Practical Suggestions

lundi 24 décembre 2007 01:18

Hi Simplydancer,

I strongly disagree with your post and to be honnest I find your answers really pathetic to say the least...as I mentioned previously...time for reality checks !!!

You are trying to compare competitive dancing with other sports such as golf or tennis when the number of members and the money involved has...sorry nothing to compare with dancing. No wonder why so many young tennis fans don't mind a 24/7 attitude towards their sport as, apart from the true passion one has to have to push it right to the top, the financial benefits are huge and even a at a lower level, one can make a very decent income as a coach. This is by no mean and by by miles the case of competitive dancing.

10,000 or 1000 makes a huge difference. I let you do the maths as for the potential income for the whole dance business...

You seem to answer very lightly the questions I raised so as to why people would want to compete...I was trying to lauch a discussion in order to find practical suggestions to have more people willing to compete in the UK...

 

 

 

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keggs
Joined on 24 déc. 2005
Total posts: 208

Re: Practical Suggestions

lundi 24 décembre 2007 01:40

Hi el cordobes and everyone else, can we get back to the thread please. I am still waiting for some practical suggestions on how we can improve our sport. This can include ideas for changing our structures to actually getting ou there and showing the general public what a wonderful activity dancing is whether it is social dancing or competitive dancing.  Traditionally, people go from one to the other but does it have to be that way?

Simply dancer and el cordobes mention money - what about this aspect.

Please guys, some practical ideas - however outrageous. At the risk of repeating myself one small idea change make a huge difference. I'm full of ideas but I want to hear from all of you. How can we get together and put them into practice? Can professionals like me work with amateurs, parents, competitors etc?

Hope to see you at Natwich Elaine. I've got a slight problem with my car but it should be sorted by next weekend. Hope so, anyway. Looking forward to meeting you at last.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Steve
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