Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

lundi 5 mai 2008 17:25

This has happened to me once or twice as well and I agree it is very annoying!!!  I think it is because the system logs you out if there is no activity for a while and presumably while you are actually typing a posting it dosn't recognise you as being active!!  I always copy my posts now before posting them and then if I lose them I can just paste and post.

Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

lundi 5 mai 2008 19:06

Hi onyourtoes

Hopefully I will be able to answer your posts before being logged out again. I'll also try to be succinct as possible.

1. The IDSF may feel less confident because of past history between the professional WDC and its forerunners and the old ICAD days. The pros have always been in control in our world. The IDSF members knows this and so do professionals. I'm not saying the IDSF is trying to get its own back but I know even now from my own experiences (and I am a pro) how the profession as a whole is diametrically opposed to anything that amateurs have ever wanted to do. While this is changing (I hope) it does nevertheless leave a legacy of mistrust and fear. Someone made comment - can't remember which forum which is along the lines of "it's the only business where the customer is always wrong."

2. The IPDSC situation is I agree rather an unfortunate one. That said, I do understanding why some prominent professionals feel the WDC no longer represents their interests. I'm one of them and I'm a nobody in tis world. People accuse the IDSF of creating this baby. I have no idea how it originally formed but I do subscribe to its ambitions. The Amateur League howver I feel is a direct attack on the IDSF.

3. Re Unesco. The only reason I can think of why you should mention this body is because the WDC doesn't believe in Dance Sport despite having a section. The idea that we are a sport is anathema to most in the WDC and dare I say it the profession generally. This last point links in with my previous post. This is another issue although it is part of the IDSF-WDC nonsense.

4. Re IDSF competition grading. This is really no different to the British system which is not really easy to understand by the general public, although I think ours is a bit more self explanatory than the IDSF system. But this is not a reason to attack the IDSF.

5. The pro - am division. This is the major crux of the IDSF - WDC division and goes back to point 1. I have for much longer than the IDSF believed in the merging of pros and amateurs into just dancers. It works in other sports so why not Dance Sport. You solution is no solution at all. It's just reiterating the same old outdated and now irrelevant 20th century attitudes that have given rise to most if not all our current problems - domestic and world wide.

6. Simplydancer & I have similar views on a number of issues. I don't need to defend him I choose to. His own country have now began to solve the very same problems we are discussing here. The AUstralian representative on the WDC is I believe just a rump. No one in Australia takes it seriously anymore. Pros and amateurs are working togther. Yes, they will have problems but are solving these problems by working together for everyone's benefit. The IDSF, WDC, BDC and anyone else who are currently in conflict should take a look at the Australian experience. Incidentally, Dancesport Australia chose the IDSF over the WDC.

7. Your last point disturbs me. Just because the Hurley's etc of this world (and I mean no offence by this) were top amateurs in their day, doesn't mean they have an automatic right to get to the final, semi or whatever as a professional. Everyone shouyld get there by beating the opposition not simply because all the pro judges know who they are.

Best wishes

Steve

Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

lundi 5 mai 2008 21:18

Dea quicktime2

I totally reject your premise. The IDSF has offered to negotiate but completely ignored by the WDC. As for my belief in one governing body I mean just that. Not IDSF and not WDC. That said, while I mistrust the IDSf I mistrust the WDC more.

As for extinction, we shall have to wait and see.

I did read your thread and will answer it in my own time.

Best wishes

Steve

Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

mardi 6 mai 2008 10:47

@Keggs. Hi.  Let me please begin with your point 7.  My words disturb you?  Please forgive me but this is such prejudiced and convoluted thinking on your part.  You support simplydancer and tell me that thanks to the IDSF the top amateurs of today walk straight into finals.!!  Fair enough some do.  However when I point out that 50 years ago the top dancers (with no thanks to IDSF) were making semi finals upon turning Pro this disturbs you?

You name Hurley but suggest that he and all others achieved their positions only because they were known to the adjudicators. Their dancing did not deserve the position- Today it is because the adjudicators recognise great dancing.

Well that is a huge compliment to the WDC adjudicators of today who mark on what they see rather than past form and position .  Thank You on their behalf. 

You extoll the virtues of Australia.  Are you aware that a major architect in the policy of Australia as it is today was Mr. Vince Bain.  The same Mr. Bain who became highly critical of the direction, the intransigence, the arrogance of IDSF today that he was "dumped" by the IDSF.  Perhaps you support this on the premise that no one should criticise or say IDSF are less than perfect no matter what they do.

If you wish to open a new subject then I will happily debate with you your other points but I would only ask with great sincerity you seek more facts and forget so much of the IDSF propoganda and misinformation you constantly repeat.  Yes I know you dislike professional Professionals and will use any excuse to condemn them but it is more important that you stay within the actual situation existing in the dance world..

Let me now return to the topic - and I can understand why you wish to divert attention.

1. We have a situation where the IDSF publish a statement informing "IDSF athletes" and "IDSF adjudicators" that they cannot compete in a certain event. This is intimidation.

2.  There is no clarity as to what the results will be should this intimidation be ignored.

3.  The IDSF do not have the power the authority or the right to make their threat

4-   There are no "IDSF athletes".  Many IDSF licence holder adjudicators are also WDC licensed adjudicators and there should be no reason why they cannot support either organisation. 

5. The WDC have the confidence to operate an Open Market Policy and allow all dancers to compete where they wish and adjudicators to judge where they wish.

6. The IDSF lack this confidence and so introduce control bans boycotts threats.  You suggest this is because of mistrust.  Who cares who the IDSF executive mistrust.  The IDSF Executive are relatively unimportant.  What is more important is who the dance competitors and the adjudicators trust.  Have the confidence to accept what these people decide.  Of what are IDSF afraid that they refuse choice?

7.  The WDC and many of their member organisations honorably operate an Open Market Policy.  This is absolutely and totally rejected by the IDSF.  How much integrity do people have who hold a licence with a body which totally rejects the principles and the policy in which they are supposed to believe?

8.  How many amateurs who are intimidated by threats do not compete as amateurs in WDC Am League event when they signed a declaration for the right to dance where they wished and also hope one day to progress to WDC Professional events? . In this fear do they show a lack of courage, honour, integrity ?

I am sincerely sorry but I will only respond here to future posts dealing with the topic.

Best regards

Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

mercredi 7 mai 2008 10:13

Dear onyourtoes

It really saddens me now that many here are so full of venom towards one side of the IDSF - WD argument that neither side is prepared to accept that both sides are as culpable as each other for the mess that we are in.

I have tried my best to persuade you and others to see that by continuing to blame just one organisation rather than come up with any ideas to solve the many problems we have does not do competitive dancing any good at all.

In fact, talk about intimdation by the IDSF I feel intimidated by you and others simply because I don't support the WDC which according to your logic I should simply beacuse I make a living from teaching and coaching dancing.

Rather than answer your points directly, I contacted someone to ask their permision to tell their story of what has happened in their other sport - Karate. Who he is is not relevant but his story is. I've pasted it below. Please read, digest and try to understand that by carrying on the way both the IDSF and WDC are doing will only result in what's happened in Karate.

Do you or the WDC or the IDSF or any of their supporters really want this to happen?

If you attack me again for not condemning the IDSF for their bullyboy tactics and stand shoulder to shoulder with fellow professionals against the IDSF then I can only presume you have no real interest in seeing peace and harmony and a better future for Dance Sport.

Can I also suggest if any IDSF supporters or officials are reading this that they do the same - read and digest this story and pull back from the brink of what you are doing. Threatening does you no good.

"This is my own opinion, and not that of any organisation I belong to:

I'm going to tell you a story about what I have experienced in another sport. The reason for this is the strong parallels to what is happening today in Dance.

I offer this in the hope that someone in a position of power gets to read this.

Some of you know my other sport is Karate. About 4 years ago there was a split in Karate not too dissimilar to the break up that the IDSF and WDC seem intent on creating now.

It was very acrimonious, and so highly political that even now I hesitate in writing this for fear of damaging my future career in the sport. Who was in the right is as irrelevant  in karate as it is in Dancing.

To begin:

There were a number of tawdry press releases from both sides that were never of interest to the press, but were for the the other side to read - sounds familiar? There were a number of silly rumours being put about, again we see this in Dancing.

After the split, the first thing I and my friends had to decide was which 'side' to go with. If Dancing splits, you may find yourself with the same problem. With any luck, there will be a price war as the different sides try to gain your favour, but thats about the only good thing that will come from this.

The split was about 30% to one side, 50% to the other, with the rest just giving up or changing to another style altogether. (I came close to changing styles because I was so fed up with the politics)

One group did not allow its members to compete or train with the other side, and the other group started spouting off about "freedom" and "choice". It didn't last. Again, the similarity to dancing is staggering isn't it?

By the way, next time you read in the dance press about the importance of "freedom" is in Dance,  ask yourself if the author has been so vocal in opposing the long ban we all face from medalist comps  because we dance open. Where's our freedom? Perhaps we should get that sorted before attacking others?

Then in Karate the changes started. Two organisations naturally needed to show how they are different, and independent of each other. So they start "improving things". The first thing I noticed was new rules for competing. The introduction of safety equipment . This doesn't sound too bad, but sparring wearing safety gear is as alien as dancing in outdoor shoes - its possible but you have to re-learn what to.

There are already different sets of rules for idsf and wdc bdc and eada comps. Dress codes are slightly different, drugs policies, the current messy confusion regarding age groups in the UK is a result of this, and so on.   We have two organisations with fundamentally different  goals and approaches to dance. For one its a sport, the other an art form. Why should they compete with the same rules? Its not logical. It wont happen.

Next in Karate, the technique "developed" .Stances became narrower,  Foot positions were altered to allow for what could be called "turnout". For beginners that was OK, but for those doing it a long time these little changes were next to impossible. I now go on several courses a year (no longer free as they used to be due to the split) to learn basic moves all over again.

At Egham, there is a Karate club that belongs to the other association to mine.  I watch their training when I go to dance comps. I see there beginners doing techniques in a way I would want to correct - but it may well be right for their style. Its no longer a matter of 'freedom' for me to train with them. I wouldn't train as it would not be in my or their interest. As I say, freedom didn't last. this is only after 4 years.

Will this happen in dance? Unfortunately yes.  Technique is constantly developing. Ask two top teachers about turn out in forward walks and I bet you get two different answers.  If you have two organisations with fundamentally different views on the nature of dance and the direction it should be taken in, two distinct styles will emerge. No matter what people may say, don't be under any illusion about this, dancing will become two distinct entities.

Back to karate, the next thing was further splits. Once the basic notion that to split was OK, more splits occur. I know of two other organisations that split from my 'side' I suspect that happened to the other group too.

This will happen in Dancing - no question. The BDC will lose its authority overnight. Once it is established that the BDC does not have the monopoly on the term "championship" (and it only does now through consensus), then ANYONE can hold a comp and claim it as the British chamiopnships. I would think we all agree that having 3 or 4 rival British "Championships" would not be something we want. Before the great and the good start bleating on about freedom  "choice" again, I would chose to be THE one and only British champion rather than one of several - Where's my freedom to chose that?

I want to make it very clear that I am not speaking for or against either the IDSF or the WDC. I'm speaking in favour of unity in the dance world because I've seen the mess that can occur if that is lost.

Can anything be done? Well yes.And this is the bit that is suprising. There is one body that probably just about still has the influence to prevent this from happening. I believe the BDC has the authority and the ability to stand up to both these warring factions and force compromise from both for the good of all. My only concern is if it has the courage and fortitude to do it.

This is my own opinion, and not that of any organisation I belong to:"

Best wishes

Steve