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Graham Oswick

from England

Dancesportinfo: Here at the Celtic Classic in Tralee, Ireland we have the pleasure to talk to Mr Graham Oswick, one of the most famous teachers, coaches and judges in the dance world.

Graham Oswick: Thank you!

Dancesportinfo: We would like to talk about the current situation in dancing, and what is currently happening in dancing. Let's start with England, your country. Do you think that popularity of dancing is declining or rising, or is there no change?

at the Celtic Classic with us Graham Oswick: I would say that now, the popularity of dancing is probably reaching a high that it has never reached before for 50 years. This is partially because we have had two very popular programs, a very successful series now ["Strictly Come Dancing" and "Strictly Come Dancing - It Takes Two" on BBC - Ed.] which was voted the most popular programme of the year last year, instead of many soap opera types of programmes. And the dancers who participated in these programmes have almost become celebrities in their own right now. Even some of the celebrities, when listed in newspapers for other things, are listed as participants of Strictly Come Dancing, which is not what they were originally famous for! It's quite good!

We have also just had a film released, "Shall we dance", which is another big push for dancing internationally, helping with awareness all over the world. The TV programme I was talking about has now been copied in about five other countries I know of, like Australia, Italy and Germany I believe.

Dancesportinfo: It's also starting, for instance, in Poland.

"the popularity of dancing is probably reaching a high that it has never reached before for 50 years."

Graham Oswick: Really? That's great. It really is very good for the publicity, and dancing needs it. The dancers who appeared in the TV programme have been present and very popular in all kinds of weekly magazines, gossip columns, you know: who they have been seen with, had dinner with, or having an affair with celebrity they danced with which happened in one case, very noticeably [laughs]. So I think that the popularity is growing.

We also have an initiative in England now of getting dance education into the education system, schools. It's a big thing from the government, which it's supporting now. So dancing is, hopefully, picking up quite strongly in England. Obviously it's going to take a lot of time, because people need to get from the classes they do normally, in school, into dancing schools, and into competing. It's an ongoing process, but at least it's a very positive trend.

Dancesportinfo: As you know ,in some countries dancing is recognised officially as a sport and it's financed by the government as a sport discipline...

"I believe that dancing is about sensing, fundamentally... and we have technique to help us to sense music"

Graham Oswick: Yes...

Dancesportinfo: In England it's only partially treated as a sport. EADA [English Amateur Dancesport Association - IDSF member organisation] is partially funded by the sports council, but in some people�s perception dancing is not a sport. There is no sport environment, sport atmosphere etc. In your opinion, do you believe that dancing is a sport? Or would you prefer to say that it's an art?

Graham Oswick: I would definitely say it's an art - but with an element of sport. Obviously, as dancers, we need to be fit and we need to do a kind of fitness training for muscular toning and so on, but it's directly related to producing an art form, exactly like in ballet. Ballet dancers follow a very strict diet, and a very, very strict exercise regime. We don't do so well in ballroom and latin. But ballet has never even been considered as a sport. It's an art form. I believe that dancing is about sensing, fundamentally... and we have technique to help us to sense music. I don't see how it ever can be considered as a sport.

Dancesportinfo: You've just mentioned the two aspects of dancing, technique and performance. Do you think that one of them is more important than the other?

short break from
judging...

Graham Oswick: I wouldn't say one or the other is more important... But the order in which they should be learnt is important. You can't really perform something unless you have a technical basis with which to protect it. It's been very interesting at the lectures here in Ireland for few days. On the first day there were three lectures that were quite different, but all talked about the same aspect, about dancing from the inside of the body outwards. And that needed to be protected by the technical knowledge.

You can talk about all kinds of dynamics but if you can't move from one foot to the other, then the performance will last for about one bar of music and you spend the rest of the dance struggling and fighting with music rather that it being an ally to you.

From a judging point of view, from a dancer's point of view, they're equally important because just being technically perfect is useless. Walter Laird used to say that technique was there to support you, not to be there as an end product. This was the basis of how he would form your dance style, your personality, your choreography. As long as you followed the principle of that dance and the technical qualities of general movement than the possibilities for you became limitless.

Dancesportinfo: Sometimes you see couples who have very good technique, but they look like they don't really know what that technique is for. They perhaps don't see a reason for this technique... Do you think it's a mistake of the training they received?

at the foyer

Graham Oswick: It can be both, the couple's own misunderstanding or it could be the teacher's... I think it depends on the couple, because everybody is different, every couple is different. My teaching tends to be based around the technical aspect, very much so primarily, until I know the couple well and they you can talk about musicality and dynamics etc. When a couple comes to me first I want to know exactly what they know, what they understand and how they're make a step from here to there.

I am sure that there is a problem with some training, that the emphasis is placed only on the technique, and they are not allowed to develop as an individual, as a dancer. At the end of the day, that is what dancing is all about, moving to music. Technique is there to allow you to be able to do that. Sometimes the couples themselves get trapped in a tunnel... that they want their rumba walk to be perfect and forget the purpose for which they did it for in the first place. That there is music playing in the background, and this is what they're supposed to be showing, interpreting music through their movement! So I am sure that it can be both...

But often couples need to go through a transition period where they really, really need to work on technique and therefore the performance level of their dancing drops, sometimes quite considerably. Others can do the performance and technical training side by side, they have no problem with it. Everybody is different, everybody has to do it in their own way and hopefully whichever method they follow, they end up with a product that is interesting to see. Not always, but hopefully. [Laughs]

Dancesportinfo: There is a significant difference between how top professionals dance, and how top amateurs dance. In professionals you can see the performance element much more, while with amateurs it's more "sporty". Can you explain this?

"Walter Laird used to say that technique was there to support you, not to be there as an end product"

Graham Oswick: It's a normal run of events that we dance as amateurs first, it's in a way a kind of experimentation period, forming us as dancers from junior to amateur. You try lots of different thing, you try different teachers, you try different ways you want to look. And normally, by the time you've concluded your amateur career and decided to move on to professional, you've pretty much decided the way you want to move. You had time to develop your technical skills, therefore you've got a package to offer.

I've often heard that professionals look boring against the amateurs, but that's generally because with amateurs there is a feeling that they are involved in the movement and speed, but not always understanding how to stop or what is the quality of something looks like. While the professional couple has done all that, they are now encompassing more things, and it becomes much more of an art form, much less sportive look. So the quality level is much higher.

as a captain of the English team

Dancesportinfo: Do you think that there is much of a difference between amateur and professional view of the world. Do you believe that you can be a top amateur without sacrificing you whole life to dancing?

Graham Oswick: You mean that it's their primary motivation in life? I don�t honestly know of any dancer who's achieved the highest positions in dancing that hasn't devoted a very large percentage of their life to a development of their art.

Dancesportinfo: So is a word amateur then improperly used?

Graham Oswick: There is no such thing as an amateur, is there? Amateurs all around the world are not really amateurs... The definition of this word is for someone doing it without money, without financial gain - but amateurs all around the world teach, do demonstrations, and get large sums of money through competitions. So there is no such thing as amateur, 'amateur' is a bad word to use.

"Amateurs all around the world teach [...] So there is no such thing as amateur, 'amateur' is a bad word to use."

Dancesportinfo: Would you be for or against amateurs teaching, or otherwise earning money through their dancing?

Graham Oswick: I am absolutely for amateurs teaching! I think it's a proven thing that in the countries where it's allowed, Italy for example, it's a much better route to success because they have a "pyramid" teaching - the best dancers teach the next level below, and the level below teach the level below them. And they produce numbers. The same happens in Russia.

This has been, and continues to be a problem in England, and that's why we have this problem between medallist and open competitions. There is nothing between the top level coaches and the medallist teachers, and obviously there is a financial gap. The price for a lesson is high, which prevents people moving up. I could say to amateurs that I teach, "OK, you teach these couples coming out from the medallist school", and they would charge considerably less than I do. And that's the way the system works in Italy.

I don�t know of any professional coach who hasn't said the words, "I wish I knew then, when I was competing, what I know now", because as soon as you start to teach somebody, and it can be something basic, you suddenly understand that something yourself. And it's very sad, particularly in this country, that couples aren't teaching because they are not learning in that way, because there is nothing like trying to teach somebody. That's what happens with competitors. When I was competing as a professional... you tend to teach what you're being taught because you try to practise that. So you're moving on. As since you're teaching it, you understand it better.

Dancesportinfo: There is a widely spread opinion that the rule which forbids amateurs teaching is to protect weak professionals and their businesses, so they don't lose their jobs.

Graham Oswick: I am sure that's right.

Dancesportinfo: You were talking about different levels of teaching. Does this also apply to judging? You've probably seen many competitions where the results were strange, to say the least.

Graham Oswick: Many times, yes.

Dancesportinfo: Many people therefore feel that judging in dancing is not fair, and depends what teacher you go to, or what school you're from. Can you express any opinion on this subject?

"As soon as you start to teach somebody, and it can be something basic, you suddenly understand that something yourself"

Graham Oswick: I think the problem is with the level of judging. My argument has always been, and will always be, that I have been marked in my career very badly by certain individuals for whatever reason, be it because I didn't have lessons with them or because my dancing was bad or whatever, but if I felt that they were entitled to their opinion it was OK. In a sense, I believe that the only people who should be judging competitions, particularly competitions which are forming and shaping some of these young people�s careers, should either have danced to a high level themselves or, they should be training people who are!

There are many famous people in history who actually didn't really compete, but became very high level coaches because of their eye and their knowledge, and that's fine. If you're producing couples who are dancing to a high level, or you're dancing at a high level, I have no problem with you adjudicating competitions. I have a very, very big problem with people who are dentists Monday to Saturday, and who are judge competitions on Sunday, because they have sat through one seminar one day a year, and they sat and listened to two people talking about dancing and the think that that qualifies them to judge.

Dancesportinfo: There is a lot of fragmentation in dancing organisations. There are several in the UK, Ukraine and other countries. And of course a big difference in the view of dancing between two large international organisations, the WDDSC and the IDSF. Do you think there is a chance of a system where everyone is a part of one happy dancing family?

judging the IDSF
Amateur Latin event

Graham Oswick: I think that there is never going to be one system where everybody is happy! There is always going to be certain party who feels aggrevated by the way the system works, whatever the system is. Unfortunately, I, as someone who very passionately feels about dancing, personally feel that a lot of the struggle is caused by a personal power struggle and not really reflected by dancing, by dancers, and not about what they want. Decisions are made and taken out of their hands, and I feel that dancers are never, ever asked what they want. Something needs to be done. There are things happening, and maybe these things will get sorted out, but it's going to take time - and a couple of deflated egos. It's the dancers who are important, not the people at the top of the... federations, or whatever they are. It's the dancers we should be looking after. And whoever ends up in control has to be somebody who is as fair as it's possible to be.

There have always been problems, you can go back as far as you like in time, and it's always been that way: people were unfair to couples or couples were feeling that the judging was bad. But things get done and change. I still think that, possibly years ago, the main criteria was about the dancers. When things needed to be done they got done. But things have changed. The problem now is that the more money is involved, the bigger the trouble hat comes with it. Money, more than anything, is the root of evil, and power - power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

The great thing about the IDSF is that it's run by businessmen, which is great, because in history all organisations were run by dancers, and by the pure fact that they were dancers, they were not so great in business [laughs]! But because the IDSF is run by businessmen, they have time to devote to getting sponsorship, think about the system and everything like that. But the negative side of that is that they are not dancers, so it's questionable if the decisions they make reflect dancers' needs and requirements. That was one of my key concerns.

"[The IDSF] are not dancers, so it's questionable if the decisions they make reflect dancers' needs and requirements"

Dancesportinfo: Do you think there is a chance to create one organisation which might be governed by professional teachers, judges and dancers at the same time?

Graham Oswick: Well, everything is possible. With negotiation between all parties involved, and talking round the table, everything is possible. It must be! It's never going to be easy, and there is always going to be competition. But competition is how things move forward. It's the same way in any business area, it's competition which makes the original business work harder.

Dancesportinfo: Let me get back to a subject we talked about before. In Russia, in Italy, dancing is organised differently, in clubs. There is no club system in England. So when you go to a coach here in England you pay for an hour, and one hour later the teacher doesn't think of you anymore, they move to the next couple. So there is a lack of support. It's difficult especially for young dancers, juveniles and juniors who are coming from non-dancing background and they, or their parents, don't know what to do to move forward...

as a captain of the
English team with
Evgeni Smagin

Graham Oswick: There are two parts to that, I would say. One is, that there is no truth in this statement anymore anyway, because many young professionals of my generation, or the next one after me, are very much involved with the couples they work with, and they are very supportive of their couples, very supportive. So I think it's not so true anymore. Maybe the old generation who have done their part with couples were trainers but not coaches. I believe that when I take couple who have lessons with me, I get involved in selecting other teachers and talking about what they should wear and which competitions it would be good for them to go to. I think that happens a lot more now than it did years ago.

I do think that a club system would be good for England - in fact, I ran a club for one year because I believed that it would be a way to go. It's called Dance Dynamics. My intention was that I'd set it up in a small way to start with, and I'd use all the couples I worked with before. They paid the membership fee, and we had a studio to use. We only did it once a month to start with, with lectures in the evenings to form a group feeling, that they were working together. And it worked quite well. Unfortunately, with fragmentation in where they were coming from, and all other kinds of complications, in the end I decided it wasn't going to work right now. I hoped, my club being London based, that somebody in the Midlands and somebody in the North would take over, and that we could develope a little competition between the clubs, but unfortunately it didn't quite go the way I intended it. Maybe it's something we ought to try again. I believe it's the way to go, because it's nice to feel that you're a part of something.

"[English] couples are as good as they ever have been, but the difference is that the level of dancing in all the other countries has gone up to match"

Dancesportinfo: Do you think that such an initiative should come from the "bottom", from the teachers, or would you expect some organisation, like the British Dance Council, to create some rules and enforce it?

Graham Oswick: I think it's got to come from the grass roots, from the schools. In fact, that would be the way that we could bridge that gap between medallists and competitors, which is something that the Supadance League has done slightly, but it didn't quite work the way that it could have done.

Dancesportinfo: Over a million people in England dance socially, several thousand in medallist schools or competitively. But why are English couples not achieving as much as they used to in the past? The results in open competitions are rather below average; are they not as good as they used to be?

"It's easy to say that we had an all British final 40 years ago, but there were only British couples dancing!"

Graham Oswick: Actually I don't agree with that. The couples are as good as they ever have been, but the difference is that the level of dancing in all the other countries has gone up to match. No one country can be supreme and that was the problem in England. Particularly with the older generation, they were pushing the idea that England was great and good - and it is, but it's just one of the great nations. There are so many other good dancing countries, all with different qualities. The champions they�ve produced in the past are now teaching in these countries. And just because of their pure social setup the Italians have this natural passion and streak in them, and Russians have this natural discipline to what they do. All these countries have a different thing to offer.

In England we've got as many people in high places and a lot of competition still. But England is not a big country in population as many of the countries we are dancing against. It's easy to say that we had an all British final 40 years ago, but there were only British couples dancing, with maybe three couples from Holland and five couples from Germany. And Germany was a huge social dance field, but didn't really produce competitors 50 years ago, or at least very few.

Dancesportinfo: When you look at the results from Junior Blackpool, there are very few English couples taking part. Why is that?

Graham Oswick: I think that the thing we need to look at is bridging the gap between the medallists and the open circuit. The problem is not the Juniors, the problem is the Juveniles. You have to go back to the beginning. We have to get the Juveniles into bridging the gap between the medallist and the open competition level. There really isn't any difference at all, except in the name. Everything they dance in a medallist competition, they can dance in an open competition. The dress rules are exactly the same, so it just means a difference in location normally. The numbers of these people are still there.

Dancesportinfo: What age do you think people should start dancing if they want to be competitors?

with Zbyszek Swirski from
Dancesportinfo.net

Graham Oswick: Well, the younger you start, the more chance you've got, but there are other people who start late and are equally successful. It depends on your background. Some people have done dancing in a different form, they've done ballet, they've done jazz and they've come into our world. These people have been highly successful with that. Oother people started when they were four and just gone on and done it. So it depends on the individual. I never danced as a juvenile; I started competing as a junior, when I was thirteen. I won the International two years later. It all comes down to desire, how much you want to do something.

Dancesportinfo: How many hours of lessons and practice should one have to achieve the best of results?

Graham Oswick: The thing is that if you have good information, you don't need many lessons. It depends on the level and ability of the person. Some people need monitoring more closely and more regularly, other people you can teach once a month, and they would come back with having practised what you asked them to do. And that would be enough for them. If you're doing ballroom and latin, then one hour of lessons per week is enough. The higher you get the more you need to do, but then the more practice you need to do. I am a great believer that for every hour of lesson there should be at least four hours of practice.

"I am a great believer that for every hour of lesson there should be at least four hours of practice"

Dancesportinfo: So your view of the future of dancing in England is quite optimistic - this makes me feel happy.

Graham Oswick: I am not so blind that I cannot see that there are problems. We have a long way to go. We probably will not have so many high level juniors for the next few years, but if things progress in the way they have been progressing, the initiative is about going into schools. It's all about numbers, the more people you have the more chances you have of finding a champion.

Dancesportinfo: Thank you very much for the interesting conversation!